Curse

Malician · Dec 15, 2009, 03:21 AM // 03:21

I'll spend a few minutes working with a team so as to have fun. Generally, I bring in a second healer (doesn't matter who), 2 random damage dealers, and 3-4 physical damage dealers. I'll work through physicals getting them to drop their tanking skills (assassins are usually best, since it's hard to mess up MS/DB and most people have some bastardized version of it). I used to like Imbagons, but playing without constant SY is much more fun.

Sometimes you just end up with really crappy physicals who do nothing but autoattack. If I have Soh/OoV heroes that's no problem, but I've had full player parties at places like Thommis where I sat there healing the party for five minutes while everyone sat around sucking.

The only really bothersome thing about PUGs is getting the physicals to drop their tanking skills and random useless junk (self-heals, PVE skills / summons). + you've got the people who respond really slowly and/or you can't tell if they're cooperating or not; they seem to think if they stall enough you will give up and let them bring shadowform or whatever garbage they have loaded.

the_jos · Dec 15, 2009, 10:47 AM // 10:47

People take what they know works, even if it's less efficient.
And they take what they think others can play without too much coordination, without playing with a synergized team where builds depend too much on each other.
Why? It's PUG!

Vazze · Dec 15, 2009, 04:09 PM // 16:09

After factions came out, there were only a few brief moments when monks were the best healers. First it was infinite energy from SR (with HB) now it is infinite energy from ER. I wonder if this is a joke by the devs and they keep laughing at the noobs ever since? Idk, I think it is retarded, like sf or ap, but it is their game. However, the truth is that monks are perfectly capable of keeping up a team in general pve, so there is really no need to "glf er infuser" for HM missions/quests.

Btw I made PUGs for Dhuum a couple of times with the same "core": SoH+melee+SoS, except that I take monks instead of eles (you can't find er infusers for balanced, but there are plenty of monks) and one melee is replaced by a fevered dream e/me/n. It is a solid build.

HigherMinion · Jan 23, 2010, 03:00 AM // 03:00

I still can't grasp why, in some PUGs I've joined, there are players running Ursan blessing and warriors with healing prayers, fire storm, etc. Why are these people never told by the leader that what they are running is rubbish? If they are told often enough they might just change.

And the thing about running ER in PUG teams, is you can carry your team through anything more or less, so the whole "idiotic pug" problem is limited. I still tell them to change awful skills because I don't want to hang around longer.

Actually, if you ask someone to change their build and they reply yes or no, you will know from then on if they will be good/bad/arrogant/compliant/dismissive players.

qvtkc · Jan 25, 2010, 02:06 PM // 14:06

There's nothing overly wrong with Defy Pain. It can be a decent choice in some settings (bad/no prot monk, axe warrior etc). It's just that there are many better choices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Well, for an example, my Meta is as follows, for an 8man team:

ER bond/infuse spammer (People are still trying to work out why these>monks. Those people are known as PUGs sadface)
ER secondary Bond/infuser
4x Heavy DPS assassins, warriors, dervish, ranger or Paragon.(That can also spam SY)
1x Mark of Pain Nuker/OoV-SoH maintainer.
Cleaner or MB if required.
If not an SoS spirit Spammer is still the only thing I would keep.

The above could easily become Meta, the builds are very flexible, and almost anyone can join in. A mesmer spamming EVAS' can replace a physical.

While I do agree that physical-heavy builds are great both in damage and stability, there are a lot of problems with them:

First off, people can't play melee properly. PUG warriors almost always carry LOLRANDUMB builds with stuff like Seeking Blade or Fire Storm.
Second, their actual play simply isn't aggressive at all. Standing there like some sack of old potatoes won't kill enemies, but they just won't get in there.
Third, they must be kept clean in order to be efficient - no blind, no cripple, no hexes, no blocking. Taking a mesmer or ranger to interrupt Aegis or BSurge or stuff like that could be a good idea.

Also, while I see on these boards that ER healers are great and all... I find the opposite to be true. Sure, the build is great. It escapes most players how to use it, though. Remember, PUG meta is meta not only because the stuff works, but also because any schmuck could use it. Same reason as to why Ursan was so popular.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrike942

I take offense (...) I don't care what anyone says

Welcome to the internet m8, no one cares for your approval or if you get offended.

MasterSasori · Jan 25, 2010, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

While I do agree that physical-heavy builds are great both in damage and stability, there are a lot of problems with them:

First off, people can't play melee properly. PUG warriors almost always carry LOLRANDUMB builds with stuff like Seeking Blade or Fire Storm.
Second, their actual play simply isn't aggressive at all. Standing there like some sack of old potatoes won't kill enemies, but they just won't get in there.
Third, they must be kept clean in order to be efficient - no blind, no cripple, no hexes, no blocking. Taking a mesmer or ranger to interrupt Aegis or BSurge or stuff like that could be a good idea.

Meleeing properly these days is simply running into a target in a giant clusterfuk with 100blades with air of superiority with good prot and heal backup.

Reason why warriors aren't so brave anymore is that the standard pug reprimands boldness (I do not condone stupidity though) and running into a group is often seen as leeroying.

Being kept clean can be done with a support character dedicated to this role and some of the problems aren't so bad in certain circumstances

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Also, while I see on these boards that ER healers are great and all... I find the opposite to be true. Sure, the build is great. It escapes most players how to use it, though. Remember, PUG meta is meta not only because the stuff works, but also because any schmuck could use it. Same reason as to why Ursan was so popular.

Seeing how preprotting in pug groups means spamming prots on everything, you would imagine that a ER protter would be easier to play. And it is. People just need to get out of their comfy seat and experience greatness.

But if you are a good protter already, flinging prot as an ER may make use worse at preprot given enough time lol.

HigherMinion · Jan 25, 2010, 03:39 PM // 15:39

That is correct, I don't know many people that can run ER efficiently as *cough*me*cough*, but it only takes practice.

As to the comment about aggressive warriors, I tell them they can charge in, T-space or c-space, just attack. They should be told what to do.

Physicals are bitch classes in my teams because of their general attitude, I tell them to just attack the target and to only bring damage. (Of course I make them ping their build and if it's stupid, they WILL change it.)

And when people are under prot bond, any schmuck can play a physical with an ER.

Quote:

Seeing how preprotting in pug groups means spamming prots on everything, you would imagine that a ER protter would be easier to play. And it is. People just need to get out of their comfy seat and experience greatness.

It's harder than people make it out to be. I have met so many bad ER protters.

Firstly their builds are bad. You should only bring enchantments that target allies, nothing like elemental Lord or Burning Speed or Mindbender. Aura of Restoration is the exception.

Secondly, people don't realise you must SPAM and avoid the frontline casters, interrupts, Knockdowns, Enchant strips. Suddenly in a party, killing the monk first isn't priority, it's killing the mesmer or necro whom bares the enchant removal which could put your healer in danger of running out of energy. You must actively run around the battlefield, healing frontline and running back; keeping out of the way. Sometimes you can tank, but alot of the time there will be some form of interrupt and you will eventually lose.

glacialphoenix · Jan 25, 2010, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

Seeing how preprotting in pug groups means spamming prots on everything, you would imagine that a ER protter would be easier to play. And it is. People just need to get out of their comfy seat and experience greatness.

That may be because most random PUG monks seem to favour HB/UA without any sort of prot at all. So when you actually tell them to bring prot, it's a case of 'oops what do I do with PS?' *spam spam.

Improvavel · Jan 26, 2010, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Why are we talking of efficiency in the same thread as pugging?

And by the way ER/infuse is just a spam build in its core. Just like Imbagon is and so many other of the most powerful PvE builds are.

A WoH/hybrid monk build, while less powerful, requires more skill to play as you can't spam making your skills more relevant. Powerful doesn't equal skill.

Why should anyone expect pugs to be running good builds?

Do you know for how long have they been playing? How many hours did they play? Did they finish the game at all? Were they run?

You want efficiency you grab a guild/alliance team with TS or vent with the most powerful builds.

You want relaxed fun you grab a ByoB guild/alliance team with TS or Vent.

You want to meet new people you PuG.

People may say "this a MMORPG so you need to play with people". Well this is also guildwars (even if many of us are just fighting the "MOB guilds") and not PuGwars.

HigherMinion · Jan 26, 2010, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Actually the thread is all about the efficiency OF the PUGs. Which is appalling at the moment.

And I believe you have contradicted yourself;

Quote:

ER/infuse is just a spam build in its core. Just like Imbagon is and so many other of the most powerful PvE builds are.

A WoH/hybrid monk build, while less powerful, requires more skill to play as you can't spam making your skills more relevant. Powerful doesn't equal skill.

You're saying pugs run easy builds, and you're saying ER is an easy spam build, however all the pugs use monks.

I expect pugs to run good builds because they're in Hard Mode! They should have, by now, a collection of builds or atleast one good one in the time they've been playing.

It's not about how long you have been playing. I knew some people who said to me, "Don't tell me what to run bitch I've been playing since Beta!!11" And this is stupid, and an irrelevant argument.

You do NOT need VoIP to be good. It actually distracts me, hearing someone's voice.

I PUG because I don't like AI and it's fun to play with others. After all, that's what I am playing for; not to show off my titles or exp3ns1v3z arm0rz.

Improvavel · Jan 26, 2010, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Actually the thread is all about the efficiency OF the PUGs. Which is appalling at the moment.

And I believe you have contradicted yourself;

You're saying pugs run easy builds, and you're saying ER is an easy spam build, however all the pugs use monks.

First even most PUG monks run pure heal.

To run ER E/Mo in the first place they need to understand prots are good.

How many imbagons or hybrid heal/protection monks do you see in your PuGs?

Second, ER was "only recently buffed" in some players perspective.

Third, you don't really need other people to finish the large majority of the game - hero/henchie is just fine. So, the people that know how to play the game can be there waiting for pugs (if they can find them), then spending time to change their builds or just go h/h and finish it nefore they would even started with a PuG had they chose their builds.

Fourth, Eles are the damage and big nukes in the mind of less experienced players or players that don't participate in forums. I'd bed that the large majority of the players that created an Ele did so for the damage nor to heal. Like most that created warriors did so to control aggro and laugh at damage taken. That has been that way for most RPGs after all.

Quote:

I expect pugs to run good builds because they're in Hard Mode! They should have, by now, a collection of builds or atleast one good one in the time they've been playing.

To be in HM you only have to finish NM - and only NM NF and EoTN are somewhat challenging (and in my second account my para is in EotN with not even max damage spear and my heroes and Avi's heroes don't even have full builds) - of course with PvE builds, consumables and runners around, being in HM means shit.

Quote:

It's not about how long you have been playing. I knew some people who said to me, "Don't tell me what to run bitch I've been playing since Beta!!11" And this is stupid, and an irrelevant argument.

It is how many hours you put in the game - many have been playing since beta but have very few hours and then its what you did do exactly and how you did it.

Quote:

You do NOT need VoIP to be good. It actually distracts me, hearing someone's voice.

Voice is for people to talk and laugh while they play PvE. I'm always on voice. If I wasn't I wouldn't be playing GWs anymore.

Playing and typing is much more annoying. And then if you don't type what is the point of playing with people - or at least with PuGs? PvE skills and powerful builds? Guildies can do that (that is if you stay in a guild enough time :P).

Quote:

I PUG because I don't like AI and it's fun to play with others. After all, that's what I am playing for; not to show off my titles or exp3ns1v3z arm0rz.

Again, VOIP makes that so much better.

Basically, as I told you in game, you want experienced players to play with, but most experienced players have been there, done that.

Some are playing to get titles and/or the "rare items" of guildwars. Those won't play unless its Speed Clears. So they will tell you to shove ER E/Mo in a place we know because SF, 600/Smites are still faster.

Others, like me, are just playing with old friends and occasionally play with someone else, but aren't really interested in skipping mobs and use consumables so we can finish it faster. That isn't the purpose of our play.

glacialphoenix · Jan 26, 2010, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

To be in HM you only have to finish NM - and only NM NF and EoTN are somewhat challenging (and in my second account my para is in EotN with not even max damage spear and my heroes and Avi's heroes don't even have full builds) - of course with PvE builds, consumables and runners around, being in HM means shit.

On top of that, you only need to finish NM on one character. So that person might be pretty decent at playing a necro, but absolutely crap at playing a monk - but he wants his monk to finish the HM missions.

HigherMinion · Jan 26, 2010, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by glacialphoenix

On top of that, you only need to finish NM on one character. So that person might be pretty decent at playing a necro, but absolutely crap at playing a monk - but he wants his monk to finish the HM missions.

It's not really about the profession, but the game theory, which they would have picked up while playing through with one of their characters. If he's bad as a monk, ask him to smite and find more monks. Simple...

... But effective.

Improvavel · Jan 26, 2010, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

It's not really about the profession, but the game theory, which they would have picked up while playing through with one of their characters. If he's bad as a monk, ask him to smite and find more monks. Simple...

... But effective.

Of course you will have to find out he is bad first...

qvtkc · Jan 27, 2010, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

It's not really about the profession, but the game theory, which they would have picked up while playing through with one of their characters. If he's bad as a monk, ask him to smite and find more monks. Simple...

... But effective.

But how do you know he's bad? You ask him... But all the bad ones think they're good...

HigherMinion · Jan 27, 2010, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

But how do you know he's bad? You ask him... But all the bad ones think they're good...

You can tell from how they type, how quickly they respond, wether they have certain skills or know what certain well-known abbreviations such as "SY" mean.

Do you really think I do this:
"*War accepts invite*"
"me: hi. Are you good?"
"him: lolwtfbbq? ofc i rock"

That's never going to play out well.

MasterSasori · Jan 27, 2010, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

You can tell from how they type, how quickly they respond, wether they have certain skills or know what certain well-known abbreviations such as "SY" mean.

Do you really think I do this:
"*War accepts invite*"
"me: hi. Are you good?"
"him: lolwtfbbq? ofc i rock"

That's never going to play out well.

You can also ask them for what kind of role/play style is for them and that normally tells you what you need to know. A monk that downplays prot, a war that has a big ego, a sin, other than SF that thinks its an awesome tanker are things that require closer inspection. A good portion of the time, you can capture which players you do want or don't.

Azure mist · Jan 27, 2010, 06:13 PM // 18:13

I never pug just use a good bar for yourself AP evas ect and win then bring versatile heroes and win